Deobandis in particular limited it to istiqlalism and they argue that this is rooted in scholarly tradition. A site called barelwism.wordpress.com is worth looking into. Perhaps you could address the evidence they brought forth for istiqlalism especially when it comes to istighathah. It's an excellent site dedicated to refuting the heresies of Barelwism nonetheless.
This is too much for me to read now. I mainly see them explaining their position, which I already understand. I want to know what actual arguments you think are worthy of addressing, which have not already been addressed explicitly and implicitly throughout my publications.
The argument is that scholars (not Deobandi scholars), at least based on the quotes provided in the links, judged something to be true shirk only when there's belief in istiqlalism.
Since in the first scenario someone besides Allah is believed to be an independent agent and intrinsically powerful, no one has any disagreement over it being shirk.
Zakariyyah writes, “Allaah, the truth who is an encompassment of every grandeur and goodness then in reality there is none other than his grandeur.” (Tableegi Nisaab pg.300)
liar no page 300
Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee said, “Sayyid Sahib had the attributes of the almighty incarnated in him.” (Arwah ath-Thalatha pg.185)
first the guy who said this is a sunni this false
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee writes, “The one who is complete has a position called Abul-Waqt and when he wishes to have Allaahs attributes to be incarnated in him he can do so. it is not strange that Shaah Sahib may have had attribute of al-Jabbar incarnated in him at that time and from his position of mazhariyyat he may have resolved it by this attention.” (Arwah ath-Thalatha pg.68)"
Is the following evidence for forbidden istighatha?
"Maulana Ahsan Gheelanee writes, “We do not deny or reject seeking help from the souls of the Auliyaa, hence so if a believer inflicted with troubles seeks help from good souls then what verse of the Quraan or Hadeeth refutes this.” (Haashiyah Suwaaneh Qaasimee 1/332)"
book dont exist i checked
"The deobandee author Zalzalah Dar Zalzalah writes, “The scholars of Deoband never say that no one other than Allaah can have knowledge of the unseen and similarly they also do not believe and accept that a man during his life or even after his death has no power to help.” (Zalzalah Dar Zalzalah pg.101)"
what?
3. Other than Allah ﷻ can remove calamities?
"The Deobandee author of Inkishaaf writes whilst quoting a book on Soofee terminology, “It is these people who are the inheritors of the Prophets and they are the ones who remove the calamities of the creation.” (Inkishaaf pg.250)"
proof that that book exist?
"4. Did Ashraf Alee Thanwee affirm hadhir and nadhir?"
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee wrote, “The following actions are established from the Prophet (r) in the state of Barzakh. Looking and being made aware of the actions of the ummah, praying and eating according to the state he is in.” (Nashr ut-Tayyib pg.142)"
what that prove?
and what?
"5. The Prophet ﷺ Created from the Noor of Allah ﷻ in Essence?"
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee brings the following narration of Jaabir (t) concerning the creation of the Messenger of Allaah (r), “Oh Jaabir before Allaah created anything he created your Prophets Noor from his own Noor and not in terms of meaning but his essence itself. He created him with the blessings of his Noor and then that Divine Noor roamed wherever Allaah wished. At that time there was no Lauh, Pen, Paradise, Hell, Angels, Heaven, Earth, Sun, Moon, Jinn nor mankind. Then when Allaah wished to create his creation and he divided that noor into 4 parts. With one part he created the Pen, the Lauh with the second part, the Throne with the third part. This hadeeth therefore proves the Noor of Muhammad (r) was the first thing that was created. Similarly Alee (t) narrates the Prophet said, “14,000 years before the creation I (the Messenger of Allaah) was a noor with Allaah.” (Nashr at-Tayyib pg.5-6)"
where the book?
"6. Allah ﷻ and His Messenger ﷺ receive equal worship?"
"Haajee Imdaadullah Muhaajar Makkee writes, “As the Messenger of Allaah (r) is the truth you can call the worshipping slave of Allaah the worshipping slave of the Messenger.” (Shamaa’im Imdaadiyyah 2/71)"
"What is the response to the belief that the grave of the Prophet ﷺ is superior to the Throne of Allah ﷻ? Supposedly clerics like Tariq Masood and Tariq Jameel believe that the soil of the Prophet’s ﷺ grave is more holy than the soil that is beneath Allah’s ﷻ Throne."
Deobandis in particular limited it to istiqlalism and they argue that this is rooted in scholarly tradition. A site called barelwism.wordpress.com is worth looking into. Perhaps you could address the evidence they brought forth for istiqlalism especially when it comes to istighathah. It's an excellent site dedicated to refuting the heresies of Barelwism nonetheless.
Feel free to pinpoint the arguments (preferably) or articles containing the bulk of the arguments where you think attention is required. Jzak.
akhi
The crux is that it is an EXPRESSION of shirk.
You may read the fifth, sixth, twelfth and the last (from Imam as Subki) for scholarly input
This is too much for me to read now. I mainly see them explaining their position, which I already understand. I want to know what actual arguments you think are worthy of addressing, which have not already been addressed explicitly and implicitly throughout my publications.
The argument is that scholars (not Deobandi scholars), at least based on the quotes provided in the links, judged something to be true shirk only when there's belief in istiqlalism.
I've managed to collect the following :
https://www.deoband.org/2010/09/theology-rulings/the-reality-of-shirk-its-manifestations-and-its-types/
https://www.deoband.org/2013/01/theology-rulings/the-peak-of-comprehension-on-the-categories-of-polytheism/#
https://www.deoband.org/2013/12/theology-rulings/on-seeking-help-from-other-than-allah/
https://www.ilmgate.org/the-reality-of-shirk-its-manifestations-and-its-types/
https://www.ilmgate.org/the-ruling-on-istighathah/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/ruling-on-seeking-help-from-the-creation/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2019/12/17/who-was-shah-mu%e1%b8%a5ammad-ismail-al-dehlawi-refuting-in-taqwiyat-al-iman/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2020/03/05/shah-ismail-shahids-definition-of-shirk-in-radd-al-ishrak/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/shaykh-abd-al-fattah-abu-ghudda-on-istigatha/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2011/02/26/istigatha/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2011/09/23/definition-of-shirk-by-shah-walyiullah/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/istighathah-seeking-aid-from-other-than-allah/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2018/04/01/al-shihab-al-thaqib-on-saying-ya-rasulallah/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/ruling-on-istighathah/
https://barelwism.wordpress.com/2018/11/26/istighathah-the-importance-of-definition/
Since in the first scenario someone besides Allah is believed to be an independent agent and intrinsically powerful, no one has any disagreement over it being shirk.
https://www.deoband.org/2013/12/theology-rulings/on-seeking-help-from-other-than-allah/
"1. Saints sharing the Attributes of Allah ﷻ?"
Zakariyyah writes, “Allaah, the truth who is an encompassment of every grandeur and goodness then in reality there is none other than his grandeur.” (Tableegi Nisaab pg.300)
liar no page 300
Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohee said, “Sayyid Sahib had the attributes of the almighty incarnated in him.” (Arwah ath-Thalatha pg.185)
first the guy who said this is a sunni this false
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee writes, “The one who is complete has a position called Abul-Waqt and when he wishes to have Allaahs attributes to be incarnated in him he can do so. it is not strange that Shaah Sahib may have had attribute of al-Jabbar incarnated in him at that time and from his position of mazhariyyat he may have resolved it by this attention.” (Arwah ath-Thalatha pg.68)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashraf_Ali_Thanwi debunk you
"2. On istighatha"
Is the following evidence for forbidden istighatha?
"Maulana Ahsan Gheelanee writes, “We do not deny or reject seeking help from the souls of the Auliyaa, hence so if a believer inflicted with troubles seeks help from good souls then what verse of the Quraan or Hadeeth refutes this.” (Haashiyah Suwaaneh Qaasimee 1/332)"
book dont exist i checked
"The deobandee author Zalzalah Dar Zalzalah writes, “The scholars of Deoband never say that no one other than Allaah can have knowledge of the unseen and similarly they also do not believe and accept that a man during his life or even after his death has no power to help.” (Zalzalah Dar Zalzalah pg.101)"
what?
3. Other than Allah ﷻ can remove calamities?
"The Deobandee author of Inkishaaf writes whilst quoting a book on Soofee terminology, “It is these people who are the inheritors of the Prophets and they are the ones who remove the calamities of the creation.” (Inkishaaf pg.250)"
proof that that book exist?
"4. Did Ashraf Alee Thanwee affirm hadhir and nadhir?"
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee wrote, “The following actions are established from the Prophet (r) in the state of Barzakh. Looking and being made aware of the actions of the ummah, praying and eating according to the state he is in.” (Nashr ut-Tayyib pg.142)"
what that prove?
and what?
"5. The Prophet ﷺ Created from the Noor of Allah ﷻ in Essence?"
"Ashraf Alee Thanwee brings the following narration of Jaabir (t) concerning the creation of the Messenger of Allaah (r), “Oh Jaabir before Allaah created anything he created your Prophets Noor from his own Noor and not in terms of meaning but his essence itself. He created him with the blessings of his Noor and then that Divine Noor roamed wherever Allaah wished. At that time there was no Lauh, Pen, Paradise, Hell, Angels, Heaven, Earth, Sun, Moon, Jinn nor mankind. Then when Allaah wished to create his creation and he divided that noor into 4 parts. With one part he created the Pen, the Lauh with the second part, the Throne with the third part. This hadeeth therefore proves the Noor of Muhammad (r) was the first thing that was created. Similarly Alee (t) narrates the Prophet said, “14,000 years before the creation I (the Messenger of Allaah) was a noor with Allaah.” (Nashr at-Tayyib pg.5-6)"
where the book?
"6. Allah ﷻ and His Messenger ﷺ receive equal worship?"
"Haajee Imdaadullah Muhaajar Makkee writes, “As the Messenger of Allaah (r) is the truth you can call the worshipping slave of Allaah the worshipping slave of the Messenger.” (Shamaa’im Imdaadiyyah 2/71)"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imdadullah_Muhajir_Makki debunks you
"What is the response to the belief that the grave of the Prophet ﷺ is superior to the Throne of Allah ﷻ? Supposedly clerics like Tariq Masood and Tariq Jameel believe that the soil of the Prophet’s ﷺ grave is more holy than the soil that is beneath Allah’s ﷻ Throne."
proof?
ah you the fake muslim
fake Muslim? Who are you making takfeer of here?
afiq
I have no idea how you'd consider me a kafir just because I asked the ustadh to address Deobandi talking points
Where did I ever affirm certain Deobandi beliefs? Bring your proof. I'm waiting